Curse

DarkNecrid · May 11, 2008, 03:00 AM // 03:00

WARNING: This post will contain possible spoilers for all chapters, do not continue unless you have them all.

Ascalon City
In Real Life:
Ashkelon City (Latin: Ascalon City) is a city in western Negev, near modern Ashkelon is a seaport of old Ashkelon, ruled by many. Old Ashkelon was destroyed by the Mamluks in the late 13th century.

In Game:
Ascalon City is a city on the kingdom of Ascalon, a part of the kingdom of Ascalon. Near modern Ascalon, is Old Ascalon, ruled by King Adelbern. Old Ascalon was destroyed by the Charr, by the Searing.

Connection:
Both modern cities are near their smaller, older, cities. Both were destroyed by a powerful force. It is important to note that Mamluks and Charr carry similar organization, beliefs, and such.

Balthazar:
In Real Life:
Balthazar (Balthasar, most seen) is most commonly known as one of the Three Wise Men, from the Gospel of Matthew, in the west, one of the three men who brought gifts to Jesus Christ on his birth.

In Game:
Balthazar is the god of war and fire, engaged in a battle with his half-brother Menzies.

Connection:
There isn't a readily apparent one. One could say that Balthazar and Menzies conflict could be represenative of the Three Wise Men's conflict with Herod, to prevent the killing of Jesus Christ, which would lead to the Massacre of the Innocents, but that is stretching it, since very little is truly known about Menzies. It is good to point out however, that war generally leads to knowledge. A lot of our greatest advances on Earth have taken place due to war, both medical and military and misc. Even in-game you are rewarded with knowledge (skills) for war (killing other players). A possible connection, or stretching it? You decide.

Abaddon:
In Game:
Ex-god of water, outcast by the Gods of Tyria and exiled. Abaddon gave out the power of magic too freely, and thus the Gods exiled him for this. Abaddon was once a good god, technically, that abused his power.

In Real Life:
Apollyon (Latin: Abaddon) appears in the Book of Revelations, 9:7-11. He leads the locust plague that will be released on God's enemies.

"And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. (KJV)

"And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. This is the great dragon of chapter 12, Satan or Azazel. He has a number of names, but in each case, he is the king of all the demons, Lucifer, who became Satan." (Revelation 9:11, KJV with Forerunner Commentary)"

The important thing to take away from this, was that Apollyon was an angel, who became a fallen angel. Some believe him to be the Antichrist or Satan, as well.

Connection:
Both were once good, but became fallen beings. It is important to note that Abaddon's worshipers were the Margonites, and Apollyon is said to of been worshipped by the Muslims. Take from that, what you will.

I'm probably missing a ton, and that is where you come in! There is probably a ton of references and connections here. I've noticed a lot of the content connects with Hebrew text, and Islam, mostly. It's interesting, to say the least.

Gift3d · May 11, 2008, 03:12 AM // 03:12

It isn't something new for Guild Wars to get it's in-game ideas from outside sources, most notably pop culture. Other then that, it looks like you're just taking two fictitious (or whatever you want to call it, i know there will be MASS nitpicking on the exact definition of "fictitious" if i don't point this out) things which lots of info is available for, then taking the VERY few things they have in common with eachother to try and make up a huge conspiracy type thing.

Lots and lots and lots and LLLLOOOOOTTTTTTTSSSSSSSSSSSSSS of wasted time. If you're into that kind of stuff maybe read up on something.. you know.. real. Roman literature is cool.

DarkNecrid · May 11, 2008, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

It isn't something new for Guild Wars to get it's in-game ideas from outside sources, most notably pop culture. Other then that, it looks like you're just taking two fictitious (or whatever you want to call it, i know there will be MASS nitpicking on the exact definition of "fictitious" if i don't point this out) things which lots of info is available for, then taking the VERY few things they have in common with eachother to try and make up a huge conspiracy type thing.

Lots and lots and lots and LLLLOOOOOTTTTTTTSSSSSSSSSSSSSS of wasted time. If you're into that kind of stuff maybe read up on something.. you know.. real. Roman literature is cool.

I'm not making a conspiracy out of them, maybe...just maybe....I like the creative design thought process behind stuff.

Crazy, I know.

I'm that guy who see's MGS3 and goes "why is this bird pooping on my guy, wth was Hideo Kojima thinking", and then I try to figure out what he was.

Mork from Ork · May 11, 2008, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

.......... to try and make up a huge conspiracy type thing.

??????????

Who said conspiracy?

Yeesh

Picking up on literature (and other) sources used in game is a lot of fun - the designers put it there for fun and we have fun finding it.

While we are at it - Kormir's blindness is an archetypal symbol of wisdom and truth. ie - Homer the blind poet, Horus who exchanged an eye for knowledge, ditto Odin, The Matrix (a modern literary example) etc.

In the world of the blind a one eyed man is king but in the world of the sighted the blind man sees truth most clearly.

I would suspect also that the idea to use body parts for the realms of Abaddon came from Hieronymus Bosch's depictions of hell in his triptych "Garden of Earthly Delights."

poasiods · May 11, 2008, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

It isn't something new for Guild Wars to get it's in-game ideas from outside sources, most notably pop culture. Other then that, it looks like you're just taking two fictitious (or whatever you want to call it, i know there will be MASS nitpicking on the exact definition of "fictitious" if i don't point this out) things which lots of info is available for, then taking the VERY few things they have in common with eachother to try and make up a huge conspiracy type thing.

Lots and lots and lots and LLLLOOOOOTTTTTTTSSSSSSSSSSSSSS of wasted time. If you're into that kind of stuff maybe read up on something.. you know.. real. Roman literature is cool.

Lots and lots of wasted time? Seriously, now?

First of all, just because Guild Wars producers are fond of throwing in alot of pop culture references, doesn't mean they won't be making references to ancient history or religious texts. Just because it isn't completely obvious it's there, doesn't give you any reasonable rights to call it a folly or 'lots and lots and lots of wasted time.'

There are some things which are blatantly obviously from religious texts. Abaddon is sometimes referred to as the Satan or antichrist and the description of the locust OP provided reminds me alot of Margonites. That is certainly more than taking the few things some things have together and trying to have a 'huge conspiracy thingy.' There are some deeper and not so obvious references which would be really interesting to see dug up, but it certainly won't happen with too many posts like this one.

If you haven't got anything to contribute or simply suggest, don't post on a thread like this. At the least, don't call it "Lots and lots and lots and LLLLOOOOOTTTTTTTSSSSSSSSSSSSSS of wasted time."

I haven't got too much to add on now except that Abaddon certainly is often considered as the Satan, which would be a fitting image for his role in the game.

Mark Nevermiss · May 11, 2008, 04:56 AM // 04:56

You may want to re-research this because there are MANY inaccuracies.
ِFor example:
Ascalon [Majdal Ascalan in Arabic] was invaded by the crusaders and subsequently liberated by the Mamluks who rebuilt the city. The Mamluks, incidentally, were the force that finally defeated the Moguls, who had swept westwards from China and managed practically to conquer most of Asia and significant parts of Europe. Now an analogy maybe arguably made between the Moguls and the Charr. They had respect only for might and knew not mercy.

Also I do not know what source you can quote for Muslim 'worship' of Abaddon. The Muslim God, Allah, is basically the same God as in Judaeo-Christianity with the difference that He : a- does not belong to one single race like Jehova and b- He is one pure and simple [no trinity].
From what I know Abaddon is supposed to be the warden of Hell.

poasiods · May 11, 2008, 05:38 AM // 05:38

I think the most important reference to Ashkelon is the Great Wall of Ascalon. Ashkelon also had a great wall:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

It was relatively large as an ancient city with as many as 15,000 people living inside walls a mile and a half (2.4 km) long, 50 feet (15 m) high and 150 feet (50 m) thick. Ashkelon was a thriving Middle Bronze Age (2000-1550 BCE) city of more than 150 acres (607,000 m²), with commanding ramparts including the oldest arched city gate in the world, eight feet wide, and even as a ruin still standing two stories high. The thickness of the walls was so great that the mudbrick Bronze Age gate had a stone-lined tunnel-like barrel vault, coated with white plaster, to support the superstructure: it is the oldest such vault ever found.

The Bronze Age ramparts were so capacious that later Roman and Islamic fortifications, faced with stone, followed the same footprint, a vast semi-circle protecting Ashkelon on the landward side.

A pretty hard theme to miss in the game, eh? Also, it was soon conquered by Philistines. It was constantly in war, like Ascalon, against Israelites and the Kingdom of Judash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

last of the Philistine cities to hold out against Nebuchadnezzar finally fell in 604 BCE, burnt and destroyed and its people taken into exile, the Philistine era was over.

Sounds like what happens to Ascalon eventually. I think reference to Philistine Age of the city of Ashkelon makes more sense than the city during the Crusades.

Also, in a French epic, Chanson de Roland, Muslims are said to worship Abaddon, which is where I believe OP received his facts from. (Wikipedia) This probably isn't a widely accepted fact and just a point of view the epic takes. Might wanna leave that as a side note.

Dervish Kid · May 11, 2008, 08:27 AM // 08:27

kool. how long it take you to come up with this?

Konig Des Todes · May 11, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Nevermiss

[...]
From what I know Abaddon is supposed to be the warden of Hell.

Abaddon pretty much is the warden of hell. Abaddon is considered by some sources to be one of 7 aliases of Satan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angels:An Endangered Species by Malcom Godwin

Abaddon-Satan
This was the Hebrew name for Apollyon, the angel of the Bottomless Pit. The hebrews borrowed the seven-layered model of the underworld from the Babylonians to create Gehenna, whose Dark Prince is also named Arsiel. This means the "Black Sun," the negative sun of anti-matter. Within the central pit in the bottom layer lives the serpent angel Apollyon, the fallen Greek Sun God Apollo, King of the Demonic Locusts. This is much to be expected for most of the more powerful pagan deities are to be found in Hell. As far as the Church was concerned anyone not mentioned in the Bible was bad. It does mean that most of the really interesting characters are to be found in the Infernal regions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Abaddon (Hebrew אבדון Avaddon, meaning "destruction"). In Biblical references (Job 26:6; Proverbs 15:11), it comes to mean "place of destruction", or the realm of the dead, and is associated with Sheol. Abaddon is also one of the compartments of Gehenna. By extension, it can mean an underworld abode of lost souls, or hell. In some legends, it is identified as a realm where the damned lie in fire and snow, one of the places in Hell that Moses visited.

In Revelation 9:11, it is personified as Abaddon, "Angel of the Abyss", rendered in Greek as Apollyon; and he is described as king of the locusts which rose at the sounding of the fifth trumpet. In like manner, in Rev. vi. 8, Hades is personified following after death to conquer the fourth part of the earth.

Abaddon is one of the infernal names used in LaVeyan Satanism, and is first in the list—only as it comes first alphabetically—and means "the destroyer."

Identification of Abaddon

Many Biblical scholars believe Abaddon to be Satan or the antichrist. Others have stated that he may be one of the lesser demons of hell, or even a dark angel. One source, The Greater Key of Solomon by Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers, stated that Abaddon was powerful enough to be used by Moses as a way of invoking the terrible rains of the Plagues of Egypt.. in many places, Abaddon is pictured as a human sized locust, and is known as the lord of pestilence. Jehovah's Witnesses originally also considered Abaddon a demon, but now identify him with Jesus.

According to them, there are several proofs in favor of their concepts, including Revelation 20:1, which reads that "the angel with the key of the abyss and a large prison in his hand seized the dragon (Satan the Devil) and threw him down into the abyss, and closed it on him (Satan)", meaning that the 'angel of the key' had power and authority superior to that of the Devil himself. Therefore, from their standpoint, Abaddon, "the angel with the key of the abyss" (see Revelation 9:1,11) and "the ancient serpent", "the dragon", Satan the Devil, must not be both the same person.

When it comes to Christian/Judeo/Islam mythology, Abaddon is far from my specialty. However, I do know that he is basically in the same boat as Lucifer, Azazel, and the other angels that some sources claim to be aliases of Satan. They all were the first(s) to rebel against God.

The Abaddon in the game is meant to be a direct reference to the Monotheistic Abaddon, at least imo. They both were good, they both went against (the other) God(s) and fell. They both corrupt others to do their will. They both want revenge. They both live in a hellish place.

DarkNecrid · May 12, 2008, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Also I do not know what source you can quote for Muslim 'worship' of Abaddon.

Well, I didn't mean worship in that way particularly. There's a French epic that mentions Muslims/Arabs worshipping Apollyon + Mohammed.

Quote:

Ascalon [Majdal Ascalan in Arabic] was invaded by the crusaders and subsequently liberated by the Mamluks who rebuilt the city

It isn't perfect I know, but it's important to note that in the GW2 story thing, iirc the Charr took over Ascalon and stuff....*tries to find*

Here it is, from PC Gamer:

Quote:

Many refugees flock to Kryta from the rest of Tyria; most importantly, the humans from Ascalon, which now belongs entirely to the Charr. Those Ascalons who did not flee to Kryta move southwards and barricade themselves in a fortress called Ebonhawke. Ascalon City itself becomes a ghost town, populated by the vengeful spirits of its former citizens who slay all who dare enter. A legend says that if one of the two relics of Ascalon's sundered royal line, the flaming swords of Prince Rurik and King Adelbern, are returned to Ascalon, then the spirits will finally be at rest. Lion's Arch is eventually rebuilt and becomes the new portal into the Mists with the blessing of the god of war, Balthazar; it takes the place of the Battle Isles, which also sinks in the floods.

Twan4188 · May 13, 2008, 04:18 PM // 16:18

If you look a bit at the set up of NF, you can add World War II in it. D-Day - Invasion of Gandara. Scattered armies in France - in Kourna, and so on.
Going over the mountians fleeing to the west in Prophecies.
Reminds me of the Donner Party also going westward for a new home.
The norn in EotN. Drakkar Lake, Drakkar = Dragon boat used by the vikings. Sif from Sifhalla, wife of Thor (Norse God) and Sifhalla (maybe reference to Odin's Walhalla). Norn: there were 3 Norns protecting the Yggdrasill in Norse Mythology. And so on there are more connections made in the various campaigns. The Kurzicks and the Luxons even reminded me of Romeo & Juliet, but I think that is pure bullshit.

mazey vorstagg · May 14, 2008, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Sifhalla (maybe reference to Odin's Walhalla)

I think halla is just the norse word for hall/home.

Sifhalla = Sif's Hall
Valhalla/Walhalla = Hall of the Valkeries

DarkNecrid · May 14, 2008, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazey vorstagg

I think halla is just the norse word for hall/home.

Sifhalla = Sif's Hall
Valhalla/Walhalla = Hall of the Valkeries

Correct, except Valhalla is Hall of the Slain, not Valkyries.

mazey vorstagg · May 15, 2008, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Ah but Valkyries are 'Choosers of the Slain'. :P

You're right though, I'll remember that

Accursed · May 18, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Abaddon pretty much is the warden of hell. Abaddon is considered by some sources to be one of 7 aliases of Satan.

When it comes to Christian/Judeo/Islam mythology, Abaddon is far from my specialty. However, I do know that he is basically in the same boat as Lucifer, Azazel, and the other angels that some sources claim to be aliases of Satan. They all were the first(s) to rebel against God.

The Abaddon in the game is meant to be a direct reference to the Monotheistic Abaddon, at least imo. They both were good, they both went against (the other) God(s) and fell. They both corrupt others to do their will. They both want revenge. They both live in a hellish place.

ArenaNet created Abbadon for a purpose.

Abbadon (in the language of Latin) pretty much means "place of destruction" just as Azazel, here, said. They pretty much ment Abbadn as a, or THE, Facet/God of Destruction, but in-game as the God of Water and Knowledge.

We will probably find out in GuildWars2 who IS the God of Chaos and much, much more.

ceberation · May 28, 2008, 03:00 AM // 03:00

the new Canthan emperor as Mao Zedong sealing off china as the emperor attempts to do with the help of the dragon

Konig Des Todes · May 28, 2008, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceberation

the new Canthan emperor as Mao Zedong sealing off china as the emperor attempts to do with the help of the dragon

Unless my history teacher, and documents on Mao, have lied to me, Mao didn't go Isolationist, China was Isolationist long before Mao. Mao just made China go Communism and made a revolt. So your saying the new Canthan Emperor will go Commie on us and create a revolt? O, wait, he owns it all already....

Your comment didn't even have much to do with this topic.

Fangclaw · May 28, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

and by the way, it hasnt been stated anywhere that the Canthan Emperor in GW2 will ''get help from the dragon''. If thats an ancient dragon your talking about, it hasnt been mentioned anywhere and I doubt your sources are credible.

In any case, its unlikely that Kisu's successor will be helped by an ancient dragon (dont they serve only themselves and view everything else as inferior?).

Konig Des Todes · May 28, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fangclaw

and by the way, it hasnt been stated anywhere that the Canthan Emperor in GW2 will ''get help from the dragon''. If thats an ancient dragon your talking about, it hasnt been mentioned anywhere and I doubt your sources are credible.

In any case, its unlikely that Kisu's successor will be helped by an ancient dragon (dont they serve only themselves and view everything else as inferior?).

Not to mention that Kisu's successor won't be alive when the ancient dragons awaken. The ancient dragons will arise in 250 years after EN, humans only live for about 60-100 years, Kisu was 50 in Factions, so about 55 in EN, I'd say it will be about 70ish years when Kisu's successor takes control of the Kurzicks and Luxons, not 250. But so far, the Ancient Dragons do only help themselves, excluding Glint and Kuunavang... for the moment.

Fangclaw · May 28, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Not to mention that Kisu's successor won't be alive when the ancient dragons awaken. The ancient dragons will arise in 250 years after EN, humans only live for about 60-100 years, Kisu was 50 in Factions, so about 55 in EN, I'd say it will be about 70ish years when Kisu's successor takes control of the Kurzicks and Luxons, not 250. But so far, the Ancient Dragons do only help themselves, excluding Glint and Kuunavang... for the moment.

I always had the impression that Kisu's successor, the one that did all those changes, was the one we would find 250 years later, and not one of those emperors that ruled Cantha in that lapse of time... (maybe im wrong, I'll reread that wiki page).

Thats all we know for now. It was talked over a thousand times in a thousand threads in Druid's Overlook, and it will go on until we actually see for ourselves what happens, wich might take a long while...

So, back on topic.